Re: TEXT: The Terrifying Adventure of the Windmills

[Nick Nicholas <nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU>]

To Jorge LLambias respond I thus:

#la veion cusku di'e to ki'e doi veion toi
#> The parser found two sentences which didn't parse.
#That gives a good average !! :)

Better than mine, at any rate :)

#> ***   cusku-observative. I assume '..viska ku ko'a cusku..'
#Yes, I did it on purpose. "ko'a" appears in almost every sentence, so
#I elided it as often as the context makes it clear that it refers to him.
#What do you think about this? In general, I prefer to avoid excessive
#precision, unless it is required to avoid confusion.

Though ambiguity can quite easily sneak in in a language as unexplored in
discourse convention terms as Lojban, this is a commendable thing to do.
I'm sure I've seen it done before.

#> ***   santyse'u = umbrella servant, using 'santa' for 'shield'.
#>       How about 'xacysanta'? (PS. I noticed further down that you
#>       got the same idea :-)
#Again, a strive for conciseness. But in this case {xacysantyse'u} may be
#required. What I wanted was a word for "squire".

I'd say the default interpretation, the slave who holds an umbrella over
their master, is too plausible. At least for the first appearance of the
lujvo, do use {xacysantyse'u}.

#>         do viska le go'i noi birka clani
#> *** took me a while to catch 'which are long of arms'
#Would {clani se birka} be better? I liked {birka clani}.

While {clani se birka} is clearer ({se birka be loi clani} or {seke clani
birka} clearer still), {birka clani} is good; I'd keep it.

#>         ju'i doi nobli le va simla goi fo'a brabracrida na.e bifymlo
#>     'le va simsa' = 'those who at a medium distance seem to be similar
#>                      to something'
#I said it on purpose in this strange way, for various reasons. The first
#is that the original uses a strange phrase, at least from the modern
#Spanish point of view. I think the meaning of the lojban is still right,
#(changing na.e to nagi'e).

It is, although it's odd enough for us to suspect a mistranslation. I'd
keep it.

#The second reason may be sillier. In this phrase Sancho defines what fo'a
#refers to. Later Don Quixote uses fo'a, but he doesn't mean "those who
#seem to be giants", he means "those giants", so not saying what those
#seem to be, simply that they are over there seeming, permits each to
#comfortably use fo'a for the same referent.

Yeah, a bit pedantic. But it's the same denotatum in both cases, isn't it?
In any case, I think we should allow {fo'a} to then Don even if Sancho calls
fo'a windmills. A pragmatic shorthand, if you will.

#>         i ko jdasku ca le nu mi fo'a damba co cilce je na'e simsa
#> *** ? 'fight wildly and other then similar to something'
#Yes, simsa is lousy. It's a "fierce and uneven battle". Any suggestions?
#My brain went dead on this one.

Uneven?! I thought it meant "unlike you"! Try {na'e prolanxe}, "not balanced
in opponents". (The place structure of {lanxe} seems to frown on its
metaphorical extension.)

#>     le birka se klani be le le brabracrida po'u la briareos birka klani
#>
#>     which takes a few moments to figure out :-)
#>
#>     A more Lojbanic way is to use MEX:
#>
#>      le nu muvdu vei mo'e le le brabracrida po'e la briareos birka ve'o
#>      birka
#>
#>     or reversing the possessive
#>
#>      le nu muvdu vei mo'e le birka pe le brabracrida po'e la briareos
#>      ve'o birka
#
#I hate terminators/brackets, but I'll use this one until I have a better
#grasp on how to make comparisons. (Maybe I'll learn to love them.)

Oh, I don't know. All of those look too uncolloquial for use in a narrative.
I'd say {le birka noi lairdu'i zo'e pe le brabracrida po'u la briare,os}
(po'u, not po'e). (lairdu'i = klani dunli = equal in quantity)

#> *** claxa'i = long weapon = lance, another possibility would be
#>     kilga'axa'i = kinli grana xarci = sharp rod weapon
#The only argument I can give to defend {claxa'i} is 3 vs 5 syllables.

claxa'i is, of course, ambiguous; when I saw it, I thought of "long sword"
rather than lance (but then, I've been playing too much Nethack). On the
other hand, such ambiguity is quite tolerable in Lojban, as Mark has argued:
all we need say in context is that it was a long weapon; it doesn't seem
salient to say that it was specifically a lance.

I'll go through the revised text in my next posting.

##############################################################################
# Der Mensch liegt in groesster Noth,      You are reading another .sig from
# Der Mensch liegt in groesster Pein;     the NICK NICHOLAS .sig Factory. Mail
# Je lieber moecht ich im Himmel sein.     [nsn@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au] for your
#    -- Des Knaben Wunderhorn, _Urlicht_   .sig suggestions. [Padding Space]