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Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita

> Date:         Wed, 1 Sep 1993 19:08:15 EDT
> From:         Jorge LLambias <jorge%PHYAST.PITT.EDU@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
> Subject:      Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita

> la veion cusku di'e
> >
> > Let's approach the question of ZAhO tcita from a new angle.
> > The purpose of ZAhO tcita - or of any sumti tcita - is to
> > reinsert a sumti place which has been 'deleted' from the
> > definition of a gismu (or a selbri). I.e.
> >
> >  x1 broda x2 x3 ZAhO xz = x1 broda' x2 x3 x4
> >
> > where the definition of broda' = the definition of broda
> > augmented with something like "which takes place in the ZAhO
> > phase of x4" (again omitting details).
> This is fine, but then what is the definition of broda' for a
> PU ZAhO tcita, say "puza'o"?
> "which takes place in the past of the za'o phase of x4"?
> (This splits "puza'o")

this would be

    x1 broda x2 x3 pu le nu ZAhO brode , where (le nu brode = x4)

BTW, I would make a reformulation of my original:

The purpose of a sumti tcita is to make visible a sumti place which
originally was left away from the definition of a gismu. When the
place structure of a gismu is defined, all the possible places are
considered and those which seem most relevant are retained. This
doesn't mean, however, that the rest disappear from the underlying
relationship. They still are part of it and the sumti tcita are
the mechanism which makes it possible to define -- at least a part
of -- the sumti which have no permanent sumti place. This means
that both broda and broda' in the example are actually just two
separate names refering to the same underlying relation and to two
specific subsets of the set of all the possible sumti places.

> or "which takes place in the za'o phase of x4, which is in the past"?
> (This keeps puza'o as one tense, but is different from the use of
> "pu" as tcita.) This (more or less) is the interpretation lojbab gave.

   The meaning of a puza'o tcita matches the meaning of a puza'o

    x1 broda x2 x3 puza'o x4
    (x1 broda x2 x3) takes place in the (za'o place of x4) which
    is in the past

    x1 puza'o broda x2 x3
    (x1 broda x2 x3) is in it's za'o phase which is in the past
    (x1 broda x2 x3) was in it's za'o phase


    x1 broda x2 x3 pu x4
    (x1 broda x2 x3) took place in the past of x4

    x1 pu broda x2 x3
    (x1 broda x2 x3) took place in the past [of the present]

   The difference between pu and puza'o used as sumti tcita stem
   from the difference between the same used as tenses, IMHO.

> > Specifying a sumti has generally the following consequencies:
> >
> >   (1) it NEVER does give a contour to the outer bridi -- all
> >       the sumti must be specifiable at the same time and
> >       different sumti might imply different contours, even
> >       mutually contradictory.
> I'm not sure why this is a GENERAL consequence of specifying a sumti.
> It can only apply to ZAhO tcita sumti, or am I missing something?
> Of course it is possible to say things that are contradictory, with
> any interpretation.

   Here I am talking about the event contours of the outer bridi.
   If ZAhO tcita sumti are the only sumti which might change the
   contour then the rule can be given in the above form without
   getting into trouble with the other types.

   BTW. I do agree with John Cowan in that I see a deeper connection
   between the outer point event and the phase of the sumti event
   in addition to the temporal sync. The formulation in the last
   revision of the 'Imaginary Journeys' (Rev. 3.17, available from
   the FTP server) seems to me quite adequate.

> >     A change in the contour would also imply a change in the
> >     relationship between the sumti - and this is hardly an
> >     acceptable option (i.e. that specifying a sumti would
> >     change the relationship between the rest).

> Why? Any added sumti places modifies the relationship in some way.

   It isn't a question of adding a sumti place but inserting
   sumti into a place which just has been made visible

> Compare:
>       __mi dunda le cakla do__
>       I give you the chocolate.
> and
>       __mi dunda le cakla do bai le mi mamta__
>       I give you the chocolate compelled by my mother.

here the original ought to read

        __mi dunda le cakla do [bai] zo'e__

because all the sumti places are there even if they are not
expressed in the definition of "dunda". The question of coersion
is left open in the definition but the possibility is not excluded
-- a "bai noda" is required if we are to state explicitly that
there is no coersion involved.

The "bai" is just like another FA which makes it possible to
fill one of the uncountably large number of potential sumti
places -- which could have been retained in the definition
had we considered them important enough -- without specifying
all the intervening ones.

> Is the relationship between "mi", "le cakla" and "do" unchanged?

there is no change what so ever; inserting "le mi mamta" just
adds a tiny bit of information

Let's take another example.

   c1 cliva c2 c3 c4 seka'a k2 = c1 klama k2 c2 c3 c4

or to put it in reverse

   k1 klama zo'e k3 k4 k5 = k1 cliva k3 k4 k5 [seka'a zo'e]

If we take the bridi "k1 klama zo'e k3 k4 k5" and replace "zo'e"
with a concrete k2 this corresponds to addind "seka'a k2" to
"k1 cliva k3 k4 k5". Replacing "zo'e" with "k2" in no way changes
the relationship between k1, k3, k4 and k5. Analogously adding
"seka'a k2" to "c1 cliva c2 c3 c4" in no way changes the relationship
between c1, c2, c3 and c4. In both cases we are just supplying
some extra information.

Basically both klama and cliva are incarnations of an underlying
super-klama relation which describes movement and includes all
imaginable sumti places expressible with BAI, ZAhO tags etc. ad nauseam.
The definitions of klama, cliva and other movement gismu just pick a
suitable subset of these myriad places. The important thing to note is
that inserting a sumti into anyone of the underlying invisible sumti
places will have no effect either on the relationship between the already
expressed sumti or the contour of the event.

The contour is something external, not part of the structure of
the relationship. All the possible contours are inherent in the
relationship but NOT expressible using sumti. The sumti places
can be filled with references to external events and thus make
it possible to specify relationships between the outer bridi and
these external events -- whether the external event descriptors
are inserted into the existing sumti places or tagged on with any
kind of sumti tcita.

> > (2) it can - and almost invariably does - specify a 'phase'
> >     for the sumti itself. Each time a sumti is inserted into
> >     a sumti place in a bridi a specific aspect/phase/contour
> >     of the sumti itself is raised. It doesn't matter whether
> >     the sumti place in question is a standard place or a tagged
> >     place - there is no principal difference, standard places
> >     just omit the tags.

> Again, I don't see why this is general.
>        __mi xenru le nu carvi__
>        I regret the rain.
> What specific aspect/phase/contour of the sumti is raised?

  For "mi"          : le ka xenru le nu carvi

If I take "mi" and insert it into "zo'e xenru le nu carvi"
replacing the "zo'e", I raise an aspect of me which in a
way is analogous to raising an aspect of an event -- the
phases of an event are it's properties, an event can have,
e.g., the property of being in it's own aftermath, just
like I can regret the rain on one occasion and relish it
on another. Expressing the contour of an event is very
close to attribution.

  Similarly for "le nu carvi" : leka se xenru mi

> mi zutse le srasu za'o le nu co'a carvi
> *I keep sitting on the grass as it starts to rain.
> Under the current interpretation, I'd have to say:
> mi za'o zutse le srasu ca le nu co'a carvi
> but then, it is less clear that the "natural end" of my sitting
> on the grass is the start of the rain.

   Whatever the system, it is always possible to find examples
   where another interpretation would result in a simpler or
   more elegant expression. (I guess we all agree on this :-)

   Personally I must say that I find it extremely hard to interpret
   your za'o tag example the way you'd like it to be interpreted.
   When I try to see the za'o giving phase to the outer bridi, this
   results in

     mi zutse le srasu za'o[ku] ?!?! le nu co'a carvi

   and I feel that the sumti is left hanging in the air with no
   connection what so ever to the rest of the bridi.

   I would express your example in the following way

     mi za'o zutse le srasu ba'o le nu co'a carvi

> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 14:09:21 EDT
> From: Jorge Llambias <jorge%PHYAST.PITT.EDU@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
> Subject: Re: Event contours and ZAhO tcita

> la djan cusku di'e
> >
> > There are many constructs that are grammatical but as yet have no known
> > use:
> >
> >   mi klama le zarci ve'i le nu do dansu le bisli
> >
> > Somebody may someday mean something by this, but I at least do not
> > understand it. (I know several things it probably doesn't mean,
> > though.)
> Well, I would say that this means "My going to the store takes place in
> a tiny region of space, which is somehow related to your dancing to the
> ice." The phrase makes as little sense in Lojban as it does in English,
> but not because there is any problem with the semantics rules. (Don't tell
> me that it's the dancing that takes place in the tiny space, please!) I
> have much more difficulty in finding a meaning for the "dansu le bisli"
> than for the "ve'i".

Here is one possible interpretation

  I go to the store via the tiny space of your dancing to the
  sound of ice.

Not too weird (but then, I spent part of my summer vacation struggling
with "Finnegan's Wake", got about halfway through).

I think it might actually be quite useful to limit the dancing to the tiny
space -- the spatial extent of the dancing would then define the size of
the otherwise rather vague interval.

To take another example

  mi'o casnu le nu tadni la lojban kei ve'i le nu klama le ckule
  We discuss studying Lojban on the short stretch to the school

And still another

  mi zbasu le karce ve'i le kumfa
  I assemble the car within the small space of the room

as opposed to the following three variations on the same theme

  mi zbasu le karce ne'i le cmalu kumfa
  I assemble the car in the small room

  mi ve'i zbasu le karce ne'i le kumfa
  I assemble the car in a small space within the room

  mi zbasu le karce ne'i le ve'i kumfa
  I assemble the car within the room occupying a small space

How about it? There are, of course, other possibilities, but I
think this interpretation wouldn't contradict anything and
would have at least some expressional merit.

> I would like to be able to say:
>   __mi sipna za'o le tcika be le nu mi ta'e co'a gunka__
>   *I over-sleep beyond the time I usually start to work.

     mi za'o sipna ba'o le mu'e tcika le nu mi ta'e co'a gunka

I think this catches all the nuances and even more.

   co'o mi'e veion

 Veijo Vilva       vilva@viikki21.helsinki.fi