Re: real simple stuff

[David Cortesi <cbmvax!uunet!UUNET.UU.NET!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!infmx!godzilla!cortesi>]

> Mark E. Shoulson comments on my sentence using mansa:
>
>            remi se mansa le mu'e le remi zdani cu cnici
                           ^^ required insertion
>
>    we-two are-satisfied-by the-achievement-of the we-two-home is-orderly
>
> A fine sentence, but ... I don't know the official definition, but I
> suspect that mansa" doesn't mean the colloquial English "satisfaction",
> but rather the more technical term, of something satisfying a requirement
> or desire. English "I'm satisfied" means "I am pleased due to some
> need/want being fulfilled", or else "I am sufficiently convinced"...
> This makes me want to use "mansa gleki" or some such tanru or lujvo.

Well, as far as "official" definitions, all we have is this:

  mansa    satisfy         satisfy...in property...by doing/being..

(no rafsi, note).  I agree with your analysis of the English word, but
as to the gismu... I thought about this some and I would like to advance
the notion that the sense of a gismu might be allowed some flexibility
so that it varies with its sumti, in particular the leading one.
Consider the following opening utterances:

la cevni cu se mansa ...        God is satisfied by...

le jei broda cu se mansa ...    The truth value of that is satisfied by...

mi cu se mansa ...              I am satisfied by ...

It seems to me that the listener's expectations for what will come
in the x1 place of each of these would be quite different, and hence
the use of the gismu for different, tho related, shades of meaning
would be perfectly comprehensible.  Is that heresy?

>  ...Note that your sentence never says
> anywhere that you're pleased (unless I'm wrong about "mansa").

Quite right, but... if mansa has the strict interpretation of "meets
requirements" then "mansa gleki" would be an accurate description
only of something like passing a test.  Not of an attainment.

I think what bothers me is that if you narrow the semantic space of
each gismu, their already rather sparse coverage (of the things that
I try to say, anyway) gets even spottier.

>  Similarly, be careful with "mu'e"...
> ... it doesn't carry the same connotations that "achievement" has
> in English [which] implies a certain success and positive
> connotation; "mu'e" does not.  It's simply another type of event...

Actually, I agree with you, and I did understand that the single word
"achievement" in the cmavo list should probably be read as "attainment"
(make that change, somebody).  However, in this case "event of attainment"
was exactly the meaning I wanted.

> I'm not 100% positive you can say "le remi zdani"; I think the grammar
> might get displeased... [and later] ...  the brivla was
> preceded by "remi" which is a sumti (selma'o PA and KOhA, resp), which thus
> cannot form a tanru, so you didn't need the cu (it's allowed anyway).

Well, shoot.. "two kind-of me kind-of nest" was *exactly* the intent;
it's charming. Sorry to hear it don't work.

> ... or better, "le zdani
> be mi" (the x2 place of zdani is whose house it is.)

That's good; how about "le zdani be remi"?  (I am very taken with "remi"
"cimi" etc. in part because they have no English equivalent.)