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time to start on carter story???
- To: firstname.lastname@example.org
- Subject: time to start on carter story???
- From: marob!uunet!cbmvax!snark.thyrsus.com!lojbab (Bob LeChevalier)
- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 90 04:57 EST
Thanx for the commentary on using the language, and the quick posting
of the cribe lisri. I am of course ready with my follow-up:
Here is my proposed kickoff for the lojban-list writing effort. I await
your comments, suggestions, etc. before actually posting it, but I don't
want to wait too long. Feel free to write your own kickoff commentary
to be sent immediately in response to mine.
With whatever is finally posted, please retain a copy for sending to any
new people added to the list, possibly modified with some further
explanation, so they can understand what is being talked about.
Both you and I should retain archives for a given chunk. I'll try to
relay to you any message coming solely to me so that you have a complete
record of the commentary.
Other brief news - remove Rick Cameron from the list or list-fail; he's
dropping out till the textbook. Sylvia Rutiser has now moved in as of
today; who knows what this will mean Lojbanically, but she has just finished
the 900 New Words in LogFlash. Nora is not too far from an alpha test
version of the new LogFlash; colors are now implemented, and all functions
except history-logging, and display/print/edit/lookup the word-list (all
closely related). Responses to fund-raising continue at a good clip and
we have topped $2300, and $1000 donated, with relatively few people
dropping out. About $4000 in the bank - much more than ever before. .uicai
John Cowan has challenged you to USE Lojban. But how? A frequent complaint
from people has been that they don't know what to write. Well, here is a
possible solution. We'll try it and see what you think, and how many of you
In 1982-1984, Jim Carter wrote extensively in the then-version of Loglan
(he claimed an hour a day). Because the language was ill-defined, he used
several non-standard usages, and the arguments over these non-standard usages
were among the precipitating events for the political squabble that effectively
destroyed the Institute (and still haunts us today).
Before this happened, though, he wrote and published several pieces in Loglan,
including at least two short stories. These stories were written in the
language, not translated from English, although Jim did provide rough
translations into English. The two stories, "The Welding Shop" and "Akira"
are the most extensive writing ever in Loglan. As original works, they serve
as a starting point for a Loglan literature.
Jim has given us copyright release and permission to retranslate or update (or
what have you) his texts into the current Lojban, and to use them as the basis
for teaching materials and/or a reader. We intend to do so. (Please correct
me Jim if I have your intent incorrectly.) Or rather, I would like to see you,
the Lojban community, make this effort.
This is not a trivial job. Some of Jim's variant constructs were not added to
Lojban. Jim tended to use vocabulary based on the old Loglan vocabulary, which
was studded with gawdawful tanru. Lojban, of course, has some 40% more gismu
and a richer grammar; hence its expressive power is greater and the phrasing
should be changed. The other factor is length. The stories are not short,
running several typewritten pages, perhaps 170 and 90 paragraphs, respectively.
This message contains the first paragraph of the Akira story, as translated
into English in two ways. The first is roughly identical to Jim's original
English translation, and is somewhat colloquial. The second is my attempt to
structurally convey Jim's original Loglan (with necessary corrections) in
Lojban-structured English. I have literally translated his tanru, many or most
of which need to be re-invented or at least thought about.
You don't need to be expert in the language to participate. Even the most
novice among you can, with gismu list in hand, reinvent a tanru or two that
can be used by others in re-expressing the sentences. You can also kibbitz
on others' efforts. Those with more confidence can try translating a sentence,
or even eventually the entire paragraph (but don't bite off more than you can
chew too soon). You needn't be linear; you can take a word or sentence from
anywhere in the paragraph. All of you can work on it at once without fear of
overlap. Feel free to rephrase a sentence, break it in two or combine it,
add attitudinals if appropriate (you should know by now that our philosophy
on attitudinals differs from Jim's), or whatever.
Don't worry about making mistakes. No one will think lowly of you for trying.
And don't expect me to do the work; I'm writing the textbook. Other than
my initial setup for a given paragraph, I do not intend to comment on-line
except in answer to specific questions about the grammar. I will instead let
John Cowan moderate to the extent moderation is needed. This function will
consist primarily in correcting obvious grammar problems, and letting me know
when to supply another paragraph for you-all to chew on. Other experienced
Loglanists/Lojbanists (is there really such a thing?) can take whatever
teaching or leadership role they choose.
Suggestions - please provide an English equivalent for whatever you submit
so that others know what part of the text you are expressing, and can check
their (and your) understanding. Make tanru or lujvo as you choose. If you
don't know how to use rafsi in making lujvo use the expanded form of
replacing the final vowel of each but the last term with 'y', or even
hyphenate the gismu together so we know you want a lujvo instead of a tanru.
(An example: rilti-cadzu-bende -> riltycadzybende = marching-band)
Feel free to comment and suggest other conventions. This is an experiment and
we don't know the best ways for it to work.
The result will be assembled into a story, run by Jim Carter to ensure he is
willing to have his name on the result, and published. All contributors to
the final text version will be noted for historic purposes. We may run parts
in ju'i lobypli as they are completed, and I may have subscribers to that
pub tackle other paragraphs separate from those dealt with here on lojban-list.
Enough preliminaries. It's time to make Lojban YOUR language too. Here is
the English for the first paragraph of "Akira" (which I will forewarn you is a
science fiction story of a sort)
Akira reeled in the fish to his inflatable boat. It was fat, spotted,
silvery, and delicious. he put it in his icebox. The oven-like sun
cooked his brown skin, and he retired under the canopy. But he
suddenly looked up, for something was making a line of smoke through the
sky, and suddenly exploded with a flash and a clap of thunder. Someone
floated down on a parachute. Akira thought, "Maybe the pilot needs to
be rescued." He threw up the kite-sail into the wind and sailed toward
him. He thought, "This will make a great (bold) story when I tell it.
My young friends will love it."
.akir. (he-5) turn-pull(s) the fish to his-5 air-full boat. It (the fish)
is fat and round-marked and silver-like and delicious. He-5 puts it (the
fish) inside his-5 ice-box. The oven-sun cooks his-5 brown skin and
therefore-motivatedly recur-self-safe-puts (himself) under the shadow-producer.
Short-time he suddenly up-looks. Because-motivationally something makes
a line which-is smoke through the sky, and suddenly explodes (which-is?)
shock-bright and thunder/lightning-produced. Something-4 down-float-flies
using-tool a fall-cloth. Said by .akir., who thinks: Perhaps the flyer-driver
dangerous-without-makes needingly. Said by narrator: He-5 throws the
flyer-sail at the breeze and sail-goes towards it-4. Said by him-5: It
(the event-just-mentioned = the danger-without-making) will bravely be a
history of-something-3 by me. My young friends will long-time-be-fond-of it-3.
Feel free to post questions about what any of these sentences mean. Or ask
about a grammar point (to the group, please - I'd rather someone else try
to answer such questions before I do). Good luck, and good Lojbanning.
-- lojbab = Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273