Re: responses to Jorge on fat gismu

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

la xorxes. joi la lojbab. cusku di'e

> > >8- I don't see why the x3 of {diklu} is not a part of its x2.
> >
> > diklu?  I don't see how this comment could apply to diklo, for which x2
> > and x3 MUST be different.  A locus is a specific, which needs an
> > associated larger and more general range in order to be meaningful.
>
> --------------------------
> diklo     klo      local
> x1 is local to x2;  x1 is confined to locus x2 within range x3
> [indicates a specific location/value within a range; e.g. a hits b.
>  What is the locality on b that a hits?];
> --------------------------
>
> I can't fit {diklo} in that example.
> It seems to translate as {abu darxi by fo ma}
> This explains the places of darxi, but not those of diklo. I suppose
> that the event of hitting is not confined to a locality on b.
>
> Why can't the range x3 be specified as a part of x2, when needed?
> Could we have a couple of examples? Since x1 is confined to x2, what
> is the point of adding the additional confinement of x2 to x3?

I tend to agree with Jorge.  It seems to me that locus and range are
alternatives: maybe the x2 place could have the option of being a "bi'i"
interval when a range is wanted.

> > Note also that cpedu has an x4 manner, whereas the manner is implicit in
> > pikci (respectful, supplicant)
>
> I understand pikci now, I suppose I was confused by the similar meaning
> of cpedu having x2 and x3 interchanged. Does this imply some kind of
> emphasis, or is it just a calque of the English expressions?
>
> I would like to start a campaign against the x4 of cpedu, is anyone
> interested? Bob? :)
> The only gismu with "manner" places (besides tarti, where it's the whole
> point of the gismu) that I could find are:
>
> cpedu     cpe      request
> x1 requests/asks/petitions/solicits for x2 of/from x3 in manner/form x4
> [also demand (= mi'ecpe)];
>
> rinsa              greet
> x1 (agent) greets/hails/[welcomes/says hello to]/responds to arrival of x2
> in manner x3 (action)
>
> I can more or less understand it in the case of rinsa, it could even be
> rephrased as "by action x3", but this is not the meaning in the case of
> cpedu. It seems to call for an attitude. Why not leave it to attitudinals?

I think it is not an attitude, but rather a "ve cusku"; you may request by
letter, or by "bacru"-ing, or by gesture.  "Form" is the more important
concept.

In addition, the word "manner" is ambiguous in English: the notice "Please
leave this toilet in the manner [i.e. condition] in which you found it"
prompts the question "You mean, by groping around?".

> > >15- I was surprised that {misno} doesn't have an x3 place, but that's
> > >ok.
> >
> > It is possible to be simply well-known or renowned, especially in a
> > smaller community, without being well-known for some particular
> > feature/event/trait/etc.
>
> You knew what I meant as x3, and presumably anyone would understand it
> if filled with something, so in some sense the place is already there :)
> (I can't believe I'm arguing to add a place)
> Are you saying that a well-known/renowned person in a small community
> would be just as misno as Madonna? Couldn't we say that they're misno
> for their good character or because they're active in the community
> or something? (more likely because they're somewhat moneyed, but let's
> not be so cynical :).

This reminds me of Marshall McLuhan's definition of "celebrity": someone
who is well-known for his well-known-ness.

--
John Cowan              sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.