Re: Dvorak (& Lojban)

[HACKER G N <c9709244@ALINGA.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>]

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 bob@megalith.rattlesnake.com wrote:

>    ... Everything I can say in English is
>    harder for me to say in Lojban, ....
>
> To me, the following is easier in Lojban:
>
>     .i lo mi ke xekri bunre mlatu zu'a vu pu'o kalte le cmacu
>
> than English:
>
>     Far to the left of me, one or more entitites that truly is or are
>     one or more than one dark or black type of brown type of cat, and
>     is `mine' or `ours' in some fashion, is or was or will be on the
>     verge of hunting what I designate as mouse although it may be
>     something else.
>
> Even if you know the context (I only have one black/brown cat, I am
> looking out my window on my left into the field), the English is still
> quite hard:
>
>     Far to the left of me, my dark brown cat has not yet begun to hunt
>     a mouse although I am confident she is in the state that is prior
>     to the beginning of a hunt.
>
> English lacks spatial tenses like {zu'a} and event contours like
> {pu'o}, so an English translation is either longer or less definitive
> than the Lojban.
>
Where English is less definitive, Lojbanists say, "English is less
definitive!" Where Lojban is less definitive, Lojbanists say, "English
overspecifies!" It's all so polemical. You sound like Esperantists. :)

Looking at your above sentence, and before reading your English
translation, I would simply have said, "Far to the left of me, a dark
brown cat of mine is about to catch the mouse." That's not difficult to
say and I could have sworn it conveyed all the *relevant* information.

Notice I say "a dark brown cat of mine" rather than "my dark brown cat",
because the former implies that you don't have in mind a specific cat,
which "lo" clearly dictates. This goes back to issues of specificity and
veridicality, which have been hammered out in previous threads. Speaking
for myself, I think using "lo" when you really do have in mind something
specific is simply incorrect and is only ever going to cause confusion.


Geoff