Re: A question about space tenses

["Jorge J. Llambias" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>]

jimc:
> > > ``zo'i'' and ``ze'o'' refer to direction towards or away from the
> > > speaker's location, or whatever the origin is.
> > >
> > > ``fa'a'' and ``to'o'' refer to direction towards or away from
> > > some other point.
>
> I think historically that zo'i and ze'o were original.

Lojbo-historically fa'a and to'o are prior (at least I have a cmavo list
that includes them and not the others), but maybe their meanings were
changed at some point.

> In natlangs
> that pair of meanings is certainly common, and Zipfeanly the other two
> meanings have a derived form.  E.g.
>
>         "The girl runs away"  (from the origin)  vs.
>         "The girl runs away_from the tree" (from explicit temporary reference)

But this distinction seems no more than sumti vs selbri tcita, i.e.

1a)     le nixli to'o bajra
1b)     le nixli cu bajra to'o le tricu

2a)     le nixli ze'o bajra
2b)     le nixli cu bajra ze'o le tricu

It would seem that 1-a and 2-a mean the same thing, and the difference
between 1b and 2b would be that in 2b there is the additional information
that the running is also away from the speaker.

> It's a fact that when you start from a temporary reference, any motion
> necessarily is away from that reference.

Only if it's a point reference. Otherwise, it could be a motion within the
reference, as might be the case with "inwards":

        le nixli cu bajra ne'ifa'a le xamsi
        The girl runs inside-towards the sea
        (i.e. towards the inside of the sea, into the sea).

That's why the keyword "inwards" for zo'i is confusing. I guess it
means inwards from an imaginary circle which passes through the position
of the event and wich has its center at the speaker.

> Thus I agree with your
> interpretations of zo'i and ze'o with an explicit tagged sumti:
>
> >        le nixli cu bajra zo'i le tricu
> >        The girl runs from the tree towards me.
>
> But I would distinguish them in that fa'a, to'o relate the bridi to a
> designated destination/origin, whereas zo'i, ze'o relate the bridi to
> two places, a designated origin and a destination or quasi-origin from
> the current reference.

The default designated destination/origin for to'o, fa'a is the speaker
or current reference, isn't it? At least that's how it works for all other
FAhAs, so it should be so for these as well.

> How about these definitions (assuming "reference" is already defined):
>
>  zo'i S, ze'o S The bridi whose meaning is restricted by the tag represents
>                 a spatial transition (that is, movement) toward or away
>                 from the reference, whose starting point is the sumti S,
>                 if specified.  For ze'o, but not zo'i, the default value
>                 of S can be taken as the current reference.

Yes, that is how I understood it.

>  fa'a S, to'o S The bridi whose meaning is restricted by the tag represents
>                 a spatial transition (that is, movement) toward or away
>                 from S.  S can usefully be omitted, giving for each
>                 represented movement its generic or stereotyped destination
>                 or origin, respectively.  Appearance of one of these tags
>                 makes the default "event shape" to be transitional or
>                 progressive, unless set explicitly.
Could you give an example where you would be using the generic or stereotyped
destination or origin? If the event already has a defined direction, then
how could fa'a or to'o add anything if they were taken with respect to that
direction? Running has a stereotyped destination (the front of the runner)
and origin (their back). What does "fa'a bajra" then mean? Running towards
the front? And "to'o bajra" running away from the back? It doesn't seem to
add anything to "bajra" by itself.

Besides, if there was some need for those (which I still don't see), what
about the corresponding ones for the rest of the FAhAs, i.e. the generic
or stereotyped left, right, above, below, etc.

This is what I have so far for the Lojban definitions:

i zo fa'a zo'u: cmavo zo fa'a le du'u jarco le du'u le fasnu cu selfa'a
                le cusku a lo drata manri

i zo to'o zo'u: cmavo zo fa'a le du'u jarco le du'u le fasnu cu selfa'a
                fi le cusku a lo drata manri

i zo ze'o zo'u: cmavo zo fa'a le du'u jarco le du'u le fasnu cu selfa'a
                fi le cusku abo lo drata manri e le seltcita sumti

i zo zo'i zo'u: cmavo zo fa'a le du'u jarco le du'u le fasnu cu selfa'a
                le cusku a lo drata manri le seltcita sumti

Which roughly would be:

fa'a: shows the event is directed towards the speaker or other reference.
to'o: shows the event is directed away from the speaker or other reference.
ze'o: shows the event is directed away from the speaker or other reference
      and away from the seltcita sumti.
zo'i: shows the event is directed towards the speaker or other reference
      and away from the seltcita sumti.


Any ideas how to say "running backwards"?

"ti'a" means "behind", but "ti'a bajra" is running behind the speaker,
and "ti'afa'a bajra" would be running towards the back of the speaker.
I guess the only way is "fatne bajra". Can't it be done with tenses?

This is already too long, so I will leave my rant on the uselessness
of "mo'i" for another day.

Jorge