Re: JBO: CONLANG: Conlang Travelers's Phrasebook

[Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>]

>On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Don Wiggins wrote:
>
>> > 2. How are you? (or similar greeting question)
>>      .i do mo
>>         You what-predication?
>
>How people use vague questions like this will probably end up
>being a matter of usage.  Something like "xu do gleki" or something
>might work too???

The standard greeting question around here, per Athelstan, is the even vaguer
question "ma mo" with approximate meaning "What's up?"

Since this is a stylized greeting question rather than a serious question to
determine the listener's health or happiness, the vaguer the better.  Another
good question might be "pei", or perhaps since it is a greeting "coipei".

>> > 12. I don't speak [language X] very well.
>>       .i mi na certu lenu tavla folo jbobau
>>          I not expert the-event-of talking in the Lojbanic-language
>
>--More--
>Alternatively,
>  "mi na certu se jbobau" or even "mi na certu lojbo".  DOn't forget
>        to use places that don't have English equivalents!

I guess I'm into brevity for stylized questions for a guidebook %^)

mi xlajbopli
mi xlali lobypli
Or maybe use ruble (weak) or nalcertu (non-expert) if that is more accurate.
I'm a bad/weak/nonexpert Lojban-user.

>> > 14. Speak more slowly please.
>>       .i e'o do masno tavla
>>          Request! you slowly talk
>
>The "do" could be optional, since it would be clear in context.  My
>own lojban style tends to avoid pronouns.

Again the tanru will quickly become a lujvo, if phrasebooked.


>The "do" could be optional, since it would be clear in context.  My
>own lojban style tends to avoid pronouns.
>
>> > 22. Our customs are very different from yours.
>>       .i lo tcaci be mi'a lo tcaci be do frica mutce
>>          The customs of us the customs of you differ much
>
>Or, "mi'a do frica mutce lo tcaci"

I agree with these, though I would say it more aphorismically

loi jboklu na'o to'e donklu
The Lojban culture is typically opposite your-culture.

>     .i lu ... li'u cmene mi
>        Open-quote ... close quote names me.  For two or more word names.

Actual usage is  "mi se cmene zo/lu...li'u"
I am-called ...

>> 4. What is your name?
>     .i ma cmene do
>        What names you?

And likewise "ma se cmene do"
What are you called (implicitly "by me").
But there is nothing wrong with the other forms.

>> 5. I am lost.
>     .i mi na djuno ledu'u mi zvati makau
>        I not know the-predicate I at where-not-question.

Actual usage has been one of the following
mi pu cirko mi
mi se cirko
cirko mi ti
(well actually not the last one, but it seems in keeping with the others).

Another possibility:
mi nalju'o lei farna
I not-know the directions.

To all of these one might add the location tense "vi" before the selbri
to get the "here":
mi vi cirko mi
mi vi selcri
vi cirko mi
mi vi nalju'o lei farna

Given that you are a tourist trying to go somewhere, you could be more
specific with
mi klama fo lo nalju'o
I go by a route I do not know.

>> 6. Where am I?
>     .i mi zvati ma
>        I at where?

In actual usage, two short pro0sumti tend to be both expressed before the
selbri (cf. "ko ko kurji vs ko kurji ko") making this

mi ma zvati

>> 8. I'm sorry.
>     .i .u'u
>        Repentance!

I agree with Don that this should be attitudinal rather than predicative.
But it depends on what is being expressed.  ".uu" might also be used in
some places where we say "I'm sorry".

>> 9. Please
>     .i pe'u.
>        Please!

Correct, but I still use "e'o" which is equally valid and does not
need a do'u if followed by a sumti e.g.

.i pe'udo'u le titnanba
Please: the cake.
Since pe'u is a vocative.

If you have already said what it is you want, as is perhaps implied by the
bare "please", you might not use the ".i" at the beginning but would simply
append the pe'u ot the e'o on the ned of the previous sentence.  Alernaatively,
if asked "Would you like some X?"
A good response would be  "go'i e'o/pe'u"

>> 11. Help!
>      .i ko sidju
>         You-imperative assist!

The exclamation implies an attitudinal.  Command is one form of this.  But
.e'enai
(i'm unable!)
.ii
(fear!)
.be'u
(need/lack!)
se'anai
(depndency!)
any of which perhaps combioned with  "nitcu" or "mi nitcu"
would convey various senses of the non-command "Help!"

>> 13. I don't understand.
>      .i .uanai
>         Confusion!

or "ki'a"

>> 14. Speak more slowly please.
>      .i e'o do masno tavla
>         Request! you slowly talk

probably "ke'o"
(Please repeat)
or perhaps
malsutra ke'o
"Too fast,please repeat!"
With it left unstated that you want the other person to continue to talk
slowly after repeating this one too-fast sentence.
Some might prefer
malsutra ke'o
be phrased as ke'o malsutra
so that the other person doesn't think you want then to say "malsutra"
But to me the observative is stronger than the attitudinal as areaction to
the fast talking (which is why the "mal" is there, making it really more
like "Too damned fast: please repeat".

>> 15. It was my wife's/husband's idea to come here for vacation!
>      .i lo fetspe/nakspe be mi stidi lenu vi klama tezu'e le nunsurvi'e
>         The female-spouse/male-spouse of mi suggested the-event-of here come
>--More--
>         for purpose of the event-relaxation-visit

le mi speni is suffcient for "lo  ---spe be mi" since gender is obvious in
most cultural versions of marriage, and irrelevant in this sentence in any
case.

I would say
le mi speni pu stidi lenu vi survi'e
My spouse suggested the event of here relax-visiting.

Though I can think of other possible metaphors for vacation, the one Don
suggested covers as many cases as others.  It might however extend to cover
an evening visit to  a friend, which in English is not a "vacation" so
I might prefer "nu vi surselyli'u"
                   ^ti, I mean
"the event of here relaxingly-travelled-via"

>>       a. a good restaurant?
>       lo xamgu gusta
>       a good restaurant
>
>>       b. something good to eat?
>       lo xamgu cidja
>       a good food
>
>>       c. a good hotel?
>       lo xamgu xotli
>       a good hotel
>
>>       d. a good doctor?
>       lo xamgu mikce
>       a good doctor

OK.  I might use zangusta zancidja zanxotli zanmikce
for a more attitudinal flavor.

>> 17. That was a lovely meal. What was it?
>      .i kukte sanmi .i la'edi'u selpau ma
>         [Something] is a delicious meal.  That thing previously referred to
>         includes what?

Why not "kukte sanmi .i ma go'i

Delicious meal.  What was it?

It might even be possible to compress this to

kukte sanmi fa ma

Delcious meal was what?
with maybe an attitudinal of strong pleasure after sanmi to help separate
the observative from the question.

>> 18. How much do we owe you...
>      .i mi'a dejni ma do...
>         We owe what to you for
>


Add attitudinal ".ei" after dejni, and probably other attitudinals
after the words for meal/room/things-broken appropriate to the situation.

>>       c. for the things that we broke?
>       tu'alo dacti poi porpi gau mi'a
>       something to do with the objects that broke by us

tu'alo mibyselpo'i (.u'u)

>> 19. How much did you say it cost again?
>--More--
>      .i ke'o.
>         Please repeat.
>

This is appropriate if the price was just stated.  Otherwise you
need to clarify, perhaps with
jdima ki'a
price (please clarify?)
(assuming that "cost" is supposed to be "price", and English misphrasing of
the question).

>> 20. You are joking, aren't you?
>      .i zo'opei
>         Humorously question?

Or maybe even "zo'onai"
"That isn't funny." which if you need to ask the question is certainly true.

>> 21. I am sorry, I didn't mean to insult you.
>      .i oiro'adai .u'u
>         Complaint-social-empathy! repentance!

Excellent try and would be approapriate in many situations.  I might also
consider
.u'uro'a
Repentence: social
with perhaps an .oiro'a and a ga'i thrown on for good measure.

>> 23. I don't know anything about local politics, I'm afraid.
>      .i mi na djuno filo diklo jecta .i .u'u
>         I not know about the local polities.  Repentance!

"polity" is not "politics" but in this case will probably do.
I might append "selcnu" (discussions), giving either
diklo jecta selcnu
or diklo ke jecta selcnu
either of which could cover more exactly the intent of the speaker.
But saying you don;t know much about the polity certainly inclides the
politics as well.

>> 25. Thank you for your hospitality. We enjoyed our visit very much, but
>> now we must be going home because we have many important things to do
>> there.
>      .i fi'idaido'u ki'e .i lenu mi'a vitke cu pluja mi'a .iku'i .ei mi'a
>      xruti vo'a .iki'ubo lo vu selzu'e be mi'a vajni jo'u so'imei
>         Hospitality-empathy! thanks!  The-event-of we visit is-pleasing to
>us.
>         However, obligation! we return ourselves, because the there
>         activities of us important and manifold.

do'u not needed after "fi'idai
since you are following only with more attitudinal and then a ".i", though
the do'u does serve kind of as a comma between the attitudinals.

I would try for something shorter, using "mi" for "we", "cuntu" for selzu'e
and probably not being so flowery about the affairs.  Tourists not
knowing the language would want to not be flowery and risk unnecessary
stumbledmouthing.  But I can see a lot of virtue in flowery Lojban for
polite situations if rendered with appropriateness to the immediate situation
in all the details.

The thought of courtly Lojban has just boggled my mind zo'ocai.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@access.digex.net
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
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