2nd Logfest IRC log (very long - may not clear all gateways)

[Logical Language Group <lojbab>]

This message is over 25K long and may not clear all net gateways.  If you
get a truncated form of the message let me know and I can send it split in
half.

This is the log from the 2nd IRC session at LogFest, and some after-the-fact commentary from Veijo and Lojbab on how things went.

The two IRC logs will probably be added to the ftp site, after I have received
comments/clearance to do so from Jorge and Nick.  I had to do heavy editing of
these texts due to a lot of display control stuff and multi-threaded typing
and the texts may have some errors or illogical order to them.  I need the
people who participated to verify that the text seems to make sense and to be
consistent with what they wrote, and Jorge and Nick are the most significant of
these contributors.

lojbab
=========
access1% irc

*** lojbab (lojbab@access1.digex.net) has joined channel #lojban
*** Users on #lojban: lojbab nicxjo veion @noras

<nicxjo> .i ba'e na'e nabmi doi veion .i mi na'e toljuxre ciska bau la
lojban

<noras> casnu ma

> coi .i mi remoi zvati ti

<nicxjo> .i semu'ibo mi ta'e bilga dranygau lemi se batkyci'a

<noras> casnu

<nicxjo> .i doi noras xu lenu ritli casnu cu denpa lenu la karen cu zvati

> la nora cu pilno le xlali ke fonxa linji

*** Signoff: noras (Error 0)

<nicxjo> .i doi noras do li'a kafke zo'o

<nicxjo> .i doi lojbab xu su'o vajni cu .aipei se casnu ci'e le cabdei ke
+ritli nunpenmtu'a la noras cu linji spofu

> tu'a la noras cu linji spofu

<nicxjo> .i za'a ca lenu mi joi do cu casnu kei mi roroi me la'ezo xu

<nicxjo> .i mi cabdei cnicygau lemi briju

<nicxjo> .i co'a le djedi zemei lei pelji derxi nere'o le loldi

<nicxjo> .i ca pamei lei pelji derxi nere'o le jubme

<nicxjo> .o'a

<nicxjo> .i lemi lojbo derxi cu bramau ro drata derxi

<nicxjo> .i je'u da'a derxi .i le bauske derxi cu bramau

<nicxjo> .i ku'i ri se pagbu pabi pagbyderxi

<nicxjo> .i lemi se casnu roroi cinri .iepei

> bramau le nanba tanxe xuzo'o .imi'a pu kelci tu'a le preti renomei

<nicxjo> .i bramau loi re nanba tanxe .ua

<nicxjo> .i .ua djedi zemei si si djedi cu zemei

<nicxjo> .i mi srera tu'a lo simlu be la'edi'u ca le cerni pe mi

*** noras (lojbab@access1.digex.net) has joined channel #lojban

<nicxjo> .i coi noras .a'o do banai se nabmi le fonxa ciste

<nicxjo> .i xu rodo pu suksa lenu tavla la kolin

>  pu snada .gi'enai suksa

<noras> ja'o da pu djica le nu fonxa tavla .iseja'ebo tu'a mi pu spofu

<nicxjo> .i doi lojbab xu dape le la kolin skami ciste cu spofu

<nicxjo> .i mi'a suksa lenu tavla la kolin ca le purlmrai nunpenmi .iepei

<nicxjo> .i mi ca'o se steba tu'a le ba'e mi steba

> la kolin na birti lenu ri se curmi pilno la irk ca la nodjed. .iku'i ra pu
+cusku lenu troci

<nicxjo> .i mi ca pilno lo ciste pe vi le gugdrnosteraixe .i ki'ubo mutce
+masno .i ki'ubo mi masno lenu drangau leimi batkyci'a selsre

<noras> mi cnino lenu skami tavla .ija'ebo nandu le nu menlycnicyri'a le se
+cusku

> ky na certu lenu lojbo tavla .isemu'ibo mi'a tavla loi glibau joi lojbau

> purlmrai na'iki'a

<nicxjo> .i mi na'e se curmi lenu pilno le la irk ciste vi le loi melbn skami
+.i semu'ibo mi ca pilno lo drata gugde ciste .i .e'u ko stidi fi la kolin fe
+lenu ri ji'a pilno lo drata gugde ciste

<nicxjo> purlamrai li'a zo'o

<nicxjo> .i doi noras lemi menli cazi na'e cnici .ija'ebo li'a nandu fa lenu
+cnicyri'a leimi selsku zo'o

<noras> mi jimpe le krinu be le nu lo drata na cusku .i dukse se cusku .i mi
+na kakne le nu tcidu ro ri

<nicxjo> .i ko djuno lo tepri'a .i mijai se masnyri'a tu'a leka mi pilno do
+darno samciste .i mi nu'o sutrymau zo'o

> mi naka'e tcidu gi'e ciska ca'oku

<nicxjo> .i do si lo

> doi veion

<veion> coi doi lojbab

> xu do jimpe sutra dukse selta'a

<noras> ki'e doi darno ckami .i ma birti le du'u mi stali racli va'o le nu la
+nitcion cu sutrymau

<veion> mi jimpe je naljimpe .i le nu tcidu cu xamgu mi .i mi lanli le mi
+nabmi

<nicxjo> .i .u'i.u'icai doi noras

<nicxjo> .i doi veion do pe'i jimpe ba'e joi naljimpe zo'o

*** noras has left channel #lojban

> doi rodo le lojbo nunpenmi ba co'a fasnu ti'u la cicac pe le donri

> la kolin na snada troci .i le vorme cu stela ganlo ca le cabdei

<nicxjo> .i xu lerci go'i ji'u le tcaci

<nicxjo> .i .uu go'i .i xu la kolin ca fonta'a rodo

*** noras (lojbab@access1.digex.net) has joined channel #lojban

> tu'a mi lerci troci mu'i lenu la djan sipna kei .e la karen naka'e zvati ti

<noras> mi krefu zvati tu'a mi lerci

<nicxjo> .i za'a go'i

<nicxjo> .i mi ji'a co'a se nabmi tu'a le fonxa

<nicxjo> .i ja'o leka fonxa bilmo cu se benji zo'o
+ca le clira kei .e la tomis cumki zvati

> .i tcaci falenu clira cfari mu'i lenu la djan. xodjes na'o xruti leri zdani
+ca la cicac .pe la nodjed mu'i lenu gunka ca' le nicte. iku'i ca le ca nanca
+xy cu lifri le tolgunka surla temci ca le pu'o jeftu

<noras> le dicra cu se rinka le nu la kolin pu fonxa tavla .i .uu ri ca na
+kakne le nu kansa ki'u le nu le vorme cu se stle

<nicxjo> .i za'a la tomis cu se cinri tu'a le bangrtlingono .i mi na'e se
+spaji lenu go'i

<nicxjo> .i ri pu te xatra mi .i mi punai spuda ki'u lenu du'emei loi xatra
<nicxjo> .i .e'o ko cusku fi ri felenu mi .ai baza spuda  

<noras> xu ri du la tomis

<nicxjo> .i ko ji'a rinsa la kolin ca lenu do di'a tavla ri

<nicxjo> .igo'i doi noras

<nicxjo> .i leimi ba'ivla cu se cinri leimi selsku mu'i lenu cuxna loi se
+sinxa

<nicxjo> .i leigo'i ba'ena'e se cinri loi selsku be loi drata zo'o

> la tomis cu se cinri ro bangu .i pe'i na banzu se cinri ja'e lenu gunka

<nicxjo> .i .ua pu'o jeftu .i doi lojbab do ca certu tu'a loi cmavo be zo za'o

H<nicxjo> .i .a'o la tomis banai tcidu di'u zo'o

> lu leimi ba'ivla  cu se cinri leimi selsku li'u ki'acai

<nicxjo> .i ku'i do punai danfygau fi lemi preti

<nicxjo> .i doi lojbab la noras cu terpreti fo mi fe lenu lemi ba'ivla po'u zo
+ri cu sinxa ma

<nicxjo> .i zo ri cu ka'e sinxa lo purlamrai sumti pe lemi purlamrai selsku
+ge'u .onai lo sumti pe le le drata tavla ku purlamrai selsku

<noras> zo ba'ivla na'i

<nicxjo> .i zo ba'ivla cu sinxa la'ezoigy. anaphor gy.

<noras> le rafsi ne zo ba'i cu se jicmu zo banli

<noras> .i mi pu mutce se cfipu

<nicxjo> .i xu go'i .i mi morji le slabu valsi poi la lojbab cu pilno ci'e
+la'elu ju'i lobypli li'u

<noras> cumki fa le nu pu se glafi

<nicxjo> .i lenu galfi loi rafsi cu ja'a ckape

<noras> glafi si galfi

> .u'u do nase ponse le no'e cnino rafsi liste pe la JL18 .iku'i zoi kuot. the
+check is in the mail kuot. ba'o za mrilu fi do

<nicxjo> .i u'i mi .ei krefu terpreti .i ma se casnu ca le ritli nunpenmi

<noras> mi ba curmi le nu la bab cu spuda ledo preti

> ca le nunpenmi mi pacna fi li so'a fe loi su'omei se casnu. i mi'a jdice
+lenu pu'o pegji lenu la pycyn cu samymrilu .i la karen ba naldenpa cinmo
+pante lenu le vlacku jai na mulno .i mi na djuno lo drata se casnu. iku'i
+ganai do .a la veion djica lenu da

<nicxjo> .i doi lojbab mi ponse lo rafsi liste ki'u lenu mi pinka ciska pa
+leimi gi'uste .iku'i mi na'e pi;lno lo giu'ste ca'o lo nanca be li pidu'e

<nicxjo> .i mi larci lemi ka morji kei.o'onaizo'o

<nicxjo> .i larci si lacri

<nicxjo> .i fau lenu do djica lenu mi'a pilno le glico bango kei .ia pilno ri
+.i mi na'e djica lenu ma'a za'o se steba

<noras> le nu casnu co se tadji ti cu se zdile

<noras> la bab cu mutce batkyci'a pu le nu benji ca

<noras> ca si kei ca

<nicxjo> .i mi se masna lenu go'i doi noras .i pe'i lenu ma;'a casnu pilno le
+lojbo cu jai ke mutce cilryri'a ma'a tu'a loi se kakne pe lema'a bangu

<noras> .i xu do se steba lemi'a se cusku

> se casnu gi mi'a ba casnu

<nicxjo> .i .ua clani selsku

> .ixu do'o djica lenu stidi

<nicxjo> .i la karen roroi pante lenu le vlacku na mulno zo'o

> do'o si redo

<nicxjo> .i pe'i roda pelema'a bangu cu ca pacnyri'a

<nicxjo> Nora, I wonder if we might go English for a second

<noras> sure

<nicxjo> just to clarify the {steba} concept

<noras> huh?

<nicxjo> It's just that in its own way, Lojban can b as blunt as Klingon when
+it comes to social graces, and i don't want to trod on anyones toes...

<nicxjo> it's not that i'm frustrated, as much as that i'm a bit taken aback
+at the reality of lojban conversation...

<noras> ok - I have a thick skin

<nicxjo> you know, lots of disfluenies crop up... it's really quite
+instructive, as i said...

<nicxjo> i just don't mean to come across as overbearing by saturating you all
+with jboprosa at a mile a minute; that's all....

> i think you may understand how I have been for a long while - when you are
+the fastest on the block, you are always having to slow down for others, and
+you don't improve (only YOU don't always slow down zo'o)

<nicxjo> well... tell the truth, i'm never good at slowing down; same goes for
+esp-o and klingon, in fact...

<nicxjo> this *is* a problem; i dunno....

> Remmeber that I am NOT a good language learner.  I am talking Lojban almost
+as fast as I talk Russian zo'o and I have had a lot more intense practice at
+the latter for a good solid year.

> It is *NOT* a problem...

<noras> I'm getting the hang of it better; and it helps that you have 2 people
+to reply to while I only have 1.  I CERTAINLY don't want to discourage lojban
+"conversation" here; I just want you to know why I may not answer something
+(it may have scrolled of the to

<noras> zo to si si zo top

<nicxjo> i dunno, it's just... srange. especially as my lojban is , like,
+*seriously* out of pactice (fancy me frgetting "danlu" yesterday...)

> If we wanted you to slow down, we would tell you to do so.  And clearly and
+unambiguously (As you said, Lojban is a rather blunt language zo'o)

<nicxjo> .u'i.u'i

<nicxjo> while we're still metatextual; everything there going well?

<noras> Perhapsyou missed it as it went by, but I spontaneously said I was
+enjoying this

<nicxjo> no, i did note it; just as i said "would you like me to switch to
+english"

<noras> I think it's quite good.

<nicxjo> and thnk you for saying it; i needed to hear it ;)

<noras> As I said, some things scroll off (either the screen or my mind) as
+I'm trying to parse something else

<nicxjo> .i lenu skami casnu cu raktu
+zo'e ka'e cinmo dukse ci'e ri

<nicxjo> .i pe'i lo selcasnu ke selsku stura cu ruble ci'e la lojban

<nicxjo> (and discourse structure is relevant to me, having done my thesis on
+it...)

<nicxjo> well, actually, it's not that absent; we just never get to use the
+appopriate UI cmavo, like "anyway"

<nicxjo> so when i jump from topic to topic, repsonding to other's threads
+here, i don't get to signal what i'm doing

<noras> mi na djuno so'a .uu le cmavo poi cusku le cinmo

<nicxjo> this was something *very* instructive to find, and i think it might
+be relevant to yur teaching of the language

<noras> zoi gic. this gic ki'a

<nicxjo> see? it happens in english too ;) this = the tendency not to use
+discourse structuring cmavo like anyway"

<nicxjo> wht is "anyway" in lojban again? i mi ca claxu lemi ma'oste

<noras> mi sisku

<nicxjo> .i lenu pilno loi cmavo be zo .ui cu ji'a nabmi lenu casnu pilno la
+lojban

<nicxjo> vaupe'i

<noras> mi na snada le nu facki le valsi poi se smuni la'e zoi gic. anyway
+.gic

*** Signoff: noras (Error 0)

> mi'e  noras .i la tomis pu dicra fonxa tavla .i

> sarcu le nu mi klama ki'u le nu kurji le mi tixnu

<nicxjo> .i lu ta'onai li'u sinxa la'ezoigy anyway gy

<nicxjo> .i xamgu .i .e'o ko neka'i mi rinsa la tomis

<nicxjo> .i xu do pu klama .i xu do ba klama

> do ki'a (to mi'e lojbab toi)

<nicxjo> .i la noras puje'iba klama

*** lojbab is now known as xorxes

<nicxjo> .i coi doi xorxes

> coi

<nicxjo> .i xu zabna sipna

> i mi mutce gleki le ni do voksa tavla sutra

<nicxjo> .i go'ira'o

<nicxjo> .i ssa do cusku ji'a zo sutra

> mi tolsutra

<nicxjo> .i mi seni'ibo ji'a gleki leni ba'e mi zo'o voksa sutra

<nicxjo> . le temi cu banzu lenu do ji'a sutra faulenu do jinvi ledu'u leka
+voksa sutra cu se vrude

<nicxjo> .i temi si temci

<nicxjo> .i mi .ei spojygau le mabla ke gugdrnosteraixo skami noi na'o
+spofygau lenu mi batkyci'a

<nicxjo> .i roko gleki lenu mi puna troci lenu bacru loi jbobau selba'u pe lo
+skoto ba'urtadji

<nicxjo> .i mi su'aroi jinvi lenu xajmi fa lenu pilno lo skoto ba'urtadji

<nicxjo> .i mi cizra li'a prenu

> ki'u ma xajmi

<nicxjo> .i ki'u lenu ba'e mi jinvi leka xajmi

<nicxjo> kei .eki;u lenu mi cizra li'a prenu

> mi jimpe ije ie do cizra

> zo'o'o

<nicxjo> .i lenu se inri loi cizra bangu nesemu'u la lojban cu nibli .iepei
+leka le prenu cu cizra

<nicxjo> .i inri i cinri

<nicxjo> .i i si zo si

<nicxjo> .i mi cazi pilno leka le jbogerna cu nalbirti tu'a zo si

> i le prenu cu cizra nagi'e cinri

<nicxjo> .i nalbirti naje mezoigy ambiguous gy

<nicxjo> .i mi seni'ibo ba'e cinri .i doji'ago'i

<nicxjo> .i doi xorxes xu do pu tcidu loi pemci pefi'e la maikyl xelsem

<nicxjo> .i ri ba'e ba'e cinri .iku'i ri na'e xamgu tu'a loi lojbo gerna

> na go'i i mi na djuno fi ra pu le prlamdei

<nicxjo> .i mi cabdei facki leira pemci ca lenu mi cnicygau leimi pelji derxi

<nicxjo> .i lei pemci cu datni la 1991nan

<nicxjo> .i pe'i xamgu fa lenu zo'e dranygau lei gerna gi'e cninygau lei rafsi
+gi'e krefu gubgau lei pemci

<nicxjo> .i ku'i la maiky'elsem cu .ei zanru

<nicxjo> .i .e'o ko stidi lenu go'i kei la lojbab

> ai mi go'i

<nicxjo> .i pe'i la lojbab .e la noras na zvati

> ly zvati iku'i li na tcidu

> li si ly

<nicxjo> .i lei mi selsku cu cafne jai se jalge lenu loi zvati cu na'e jundi
+zo'o

> zo'o

> i ly tavla le speni be la djan

<nicxjo> .i lei kanla co'a minra....

<nicxjo> .i xu le la djan speni cu se tolcinri tu'a ro loi cizra zvati

> i sy gleki simsa

<nicxjo> .i mi carmi sipnydji .i leimi kanla cu cortu .i ku'i mi .ai renvi .i
+mi djica lenu tarti simsa loi kulnrtlingono sonci zo'o

<nicxjo> .i ba'a loi kulnrtlingono sonci cu roroi pinxe loi ckafi

<nicxjo> .i doi xorxes do puku'anoroi finti lo ckafyzda lisri .iepei

> mi ba troji i mi pu jinvi le nu rodo tolmorji ra

<nicxjo> .i mi pu finti re drata lisri .i ku'i lenu finti lo xamgu lisri cu
+nandu

> go'i zo'o

<nicxjo> .iji'ali'a le lojbo cu nandu bangu

<nicxjo> .i mi jgira leimi ckafyzda lisri poi zvati le skami gubni zmiku

<nicxjo> .i xu do ba'o tcidu ra

<nicxjo> .i .uu mi na'eba'o tcidu ledo terfanva be le la po,es. prosa

> mi ba'o tcidu i ku'i mi go'i ca le nu mi cilre cfari
> ca le nu mi cfari cilre

<nicxjo> .i ra kansa ro lei lujvo skicu prosa selpinka

<nicxjo> .i ri denpa lenu mi di'a gunka tu'a loi lujvo

> i mi ba krefu tcidu i mi ba pinka

<nicxjo> .iki'e .i mi go'i ledo prosa pe la po,es.

> ui

<nicxjo> .i jbini la recac. i .u'u mi .ei sipna

<nicxjo> .i mutce atpi

> i noda pu te pinka ra

<nicxjo> si tatpi

<nicxjo> .i .uugo'i .ibazi lenu do finti ri kei du'e lojbo co'u gunka tu'a le
+bangu

> i ki'e do  do zvati vi

<nicxjo> .i ki'e do noi ji'a zvati .i mi mutce gleki lenu penmi do

> mi milxe go'ira'o

<nicxjo> sisi.y. tavla do .i mi ba'o li'a penmi do

<nicxjo> .u'i doi clite .u'isai

> zo'o

<nicxjo> .i .e'o ko rinsa lei drata zvati .i .a'o do zanfri le balvi pagbu be
+le nunpnmi

> je'e

<nicxjo> .i co'o doi pendo

> co'o

<veion> co'o doi nicxjo

> doi veion xu do kakne le nu jimpe roda pi la nitc

<nicxjo> co'o veion. .

<nicxjo> .i di'a co'o

<veion> Yeah. But now I'm too exhausted to say anything coherent in Lojban

> cinri gi'enai cizra

> That was tough!

<veion> coi doi xorxes. As I said I'm quite exhausted after 2 hours of

> Can you follow him at the speed he types?

<veion> intensive reading in Lojban

<veion> Well, not quite. My cmavo are too bad. I tried
+to pinpoint my own weaknesses

> I think it's great that someone is so fluent. I heard him on the phone
> and he really is pretty fluent

<veion> So it seems even on the keyboard

> It's a good incentive to try to improve my vocab.

<veion> I noticed I have trouble in identifying gismu even as I know them
+better translating from English to Lojban

<veion> another weak area is the place structures

> What do you mean? It's easier to recall them than to identify them?

<veion> and of course the lujvo - ought to know the rafsi quite well

> The lujvo are terrible for me. I know almost no rafsi

<veion> Well, the prep program I'm using works better from English to Lojban
+as it is easier to write 5 char gismu and check it than to ascertain that the
+English keyword is correct

> Yes, I see. But it would seem that in general, recognition should be easier.

<veion> so I have been using it quite a lot more. As I told before I can do
+1000 gismu/h (ongood days)

> Yes, I remember. How about cmavo?

<veion> Well, due to external reasons I really haven't had time to start
+studying them in erneast. I hope I'll soon have more. I'm trying to find a
+good strategy as it is not so much use in just starting the list from the
+beginning

> I remember all the CV and all the CVV cmavo,which are the most used
> but the CV'V are too many

> I don't think it's a good strategy to try to learn them all

<veion> Then I ought to start writing stories again. It's quite good a way to
+build a useable vocabulary

> Yes, do start!

<veion> Following this IRC conversation gave me some ideas but I'll return to
+them off-line. Have to tes

> I remember I liked your stories, because you don't use the convoluted
+structures that Nick sometimes uses

<veion> Well, if you have read the 'Ckafybarja papers' you may recall my
+starting point. I was trying to find the way of saying things from within
+Lojban avoiding the transference from other languages

> Maybe we should revive the ckafybarja, to get people interested in writing
+again

> Yes, I think that's the whole point. Trying to imitate other languages is
+not a good idea, and translations often do that

<veion> I agree. It was just that both I and Nick who were really going hot
+got busy with other thing about simultaneously. And then I found out that I
+really ought to study some more of language first

<veion> Yeasterday I has to leave prematurely and didn't quite catch the
+message you sent me about su'u but I guess it was about my mailing which
+nobody has commented on yet

> mi'e lojbab  I need to have Jorge switch to the other machine, since this
+one has the draft dictionary.  Oh, Jorge thinks now is a good breaking point,
+and that you might just stop now. pei?

<veion> OK with me we can return to the conversation off-line later on. Would
+there be any use if I got on-line later on today (until say 1700 your time)?

> BTW, personally, from what I have seen of what you have done when you have
+tried the language, you are at least as understanding as most of us.  The
+only REAL way to get the next degree of mastery is through LOTS of usage.
+But then you should know this...

<veion> Thanks

> since your English is so close to native on-line that I have to remind
+myself that you are not native.

<veion> Well, you ought to see me when I have had some more practise ;_)

> 17:00 our time seems fine, but if we aren't there, try a half hour laterm
+just in case the meeting doesn't go as fast as I intend.

<veion> OK. co'o rodo

> co'o

Message  1:
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 12:23:27 -0400
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab>
To: lojbab@access.digex.net, nsn@krang.vis.mu.oz.au
Subject: Logfest and IRC

We have just ended a secod 3 hour marathon of Lojban IRC involving among
others (not here at LogFest), Nick and Veijo.

We have agrred with Veijo to come up on IRC again at 500PM EDT, or a
half hou later if for some reason we cannot make it then.  If anyone
else cares to join us, we will be on channel #lojban.

LogFest is going very well.  So is the dictionary.  Report later when/if
we recover (not much sleep happening here, alas).

lojbab

[This later IRC session never took place.]

Veijo comments after the fact:
I thought I'd write down a few impressions about the IRC conversations
as long as they are fresh in my mind.

I had never previously used IRC and found out it takes some getting
accustomed to.  (I haven't used 'talk' much either but at least it is
synchronous).  Several people writing simultaneously and perhaps
following several separate threads is slightly confusing at first and
distracts rather much from composing a response - especially in a
language which you really don't master yet.  The anaphora can become a
mess if two or more people respond to the same message as the
composition times differ and faster people can exchange a couple of
messages while some slower one is still composing his/her first
response.

On Saturday I didn't have much time to spend at the terminal but
yesterday was much better.  Especially having Nick on-line was rather
educating.  He seems to be very fluent (of course the asynchronicity of
IRC hides the minor hesitations but even so..).  His expression got
sometimes quite convoluted for me and I can't really say I caught even a
major part of what he was saying (my cmavo are really abominable :-( )
but it was rather comforting to find out that I could understand quite a
lot by just guessing the place structures.  As I noted to Jorge I have a
longer latency of recollection as compared to recalling the gismu due to
the type of practice I have had.  Not knowing the place structures does
significantly slow down the interpretation of sentences containing
converted selbri.  Lujvo are, of course, a major headache at this stage.

Even so, I think it is extremely useful to try to follow a conversation
the pace of which is outside your own control.  You cannot stay stuck
with a sentence which you don't understand but have to move on, so
you'll cover more material within a given period of time.  If the pace
is reasonably fast your brain is forced into a 'natural' mode of
operation where you are less conscious of the interpretation process.
You grok a few snippets here and there, lose some or perhaps the
majority, but learn all the same.  If we had enough recorded on-line
conversations I think a system which could be used to force feed text
might be useful (like listening to tape records of live conversations).
When we have enough reasonably fluent writers of the language I think we
ought to arrange weekly IRC conversations and encourage new people to
listen to.

At this stage I'm rather sceptical about the utility of me trying to
have a live IRC conversation in Lojban.  I'll have to learn some cmavo
and to write some text to get the basic structures firmly implanted so
that I don't have to spend 5-10 minutes trying to compose a
reasonable/coherent response - not just a string of grunts in the form
of UI.

I agree with Nick in that we need to establish a way of structuring
discourse in Lojban.  Complex things are complex in any language, of
course, and Nick will probably always use convoluted expressions but I
think ways can be found within the present framework to express many
things much more simply than we are used to.  (My posting about su'u -
which has elicited no responses BTW - was a cautious step in that
direction).  Quite a lot can be done using cmavo, but OTOH they can be
rather intimidating for beginners - somehow gismu are so much more
concrete. 3-4 cmavo in a row are quite disheartening - say, the
.i....bo's of yesterday's conversation.

Tue, Jul 19

(Had to stop just short yesterday.)

I think it might be useful to have IRC conversations (in English) about
various topics.  E-mail is a definite improvement compared to snail mail
but even so the conversations can be quite slow given the time zone
differences and mail delivery delays.  A (bi?)weekly brainstorming
session might do wonders.  There is, of course, the problem of finding a
suitable time slot.

  Veijo


Lojbab replies:

I think the IRC think tank might be a good idea, but not until Cowan has
his own account.  We play fast and loose with the rules to have two
computers on on one acoount at digex at one time, and I'll take the
chance for LogFest once a year, but not on a more regular basis.

I think that IRC could be imporved mightily when we get more than one
thread going, if people simply labelled a thread number.  If we get too
many threads going, we open a new channel.  (Indeed, I think IRC allows
you to automatically get thread numbers by simply /joining two different
channels for the different threads.  Still, when different people write
at different sppeds, you get people responding to a sentence several
lines back, and a numerical line number for cross-reference would be
nice.

Nick is essentially fluent in Lojban sppech.  I know this becuase we had
20 minutes of live phonecon with him, in which he talked circles around
me and Nora and others (I might have done better if we weren't using a
speaker phone, but he still is faster than me by a good deal because he
actively knows a lot of the discursive and BAI cmavo that no one else
even uses, and I am too rusty on the less-used vocabulary - though I was
once much better - for next time I will have done some cmavo brushup
with LogFlash.)

I will be posting the IRC log when I get it edited - may I add these
comments to the posting (I will also solicit comments from Nick and
Jorge among others who participated before posting the result.)

I didn;t realize when you said it was hot that it was anywhere near THAT
hot.  I guess we have images that a hot day in Finland is when it hits
30C, which it does virtually every day here in summer.  This impression
is heightened by my friends from the UK who say that 30C is rare even
there which is farther south.

And here we were thinking you guys were talking about the weather as a
means of making small-talk %^)