Re: kau and jai issues

[nsn@speech.language.unimelb.edu.au (Nick Legend Nicholas)]

Hu'tegh! nuq ja' jorge@phyast.pitt.edu jay'?

=The most popular use of jai by itself seems to be for {jai rinka} or {jai -ri'a}.
=There are 9 of those. I didn't check very carefully, but I suppose it is always 
=selecting the actor of the causative event:

Indeed. These examples here, though, are all from my (very recent) Moser
translation. Note that not all of them select an animate agent, though:

=> nickb13.txt: .i dei simlu mupli tu'a la'e di'u gi'e ba'e na'e xajmi jai mojri'a

The sentence reminds (tu'a le jufra cu mojri'a); le jufra cu jaigau mojri'a
cannot be said truthfully. In fact, I'm not sure *what* case grammar would
call this; probably an instrument --- although in case grammars, instruments
don't need agents, unlike Lojban, where sepi'o *implies* pi'o. Thus, I've seen
'the rock broke the window' analysed with rock as instrument, although no
thrower is implied.

Come to think of it, this is one area where jai is quite useful as a *contrast*
to jaigau.

=> nickb13.txt:    cu jai rinka lenu krefu srana le lisri se platu kei
=> nickb13.txt:       gi'e jai pesri'a fi lei se nibli me la freud. me'u bo pluja
=> nickb13.txt:       gi'e po'o jai depri'a
=> nickb13.txt:    cu pa'a jai depri'a
=> nickb13.txt: .i dei xenru notci lenu le sevra'a lisytadji pu jai rinka
=> nickb13.txt:          gi'enai jai tolbilgyri'a le lisfi'i noi nalkurji lazni
=> nickb13.txt:    gi'e fanza ke sevra'a jai depri'a
=> nickb13.txt: ni'o la'acu'i mapti fa lenu dei xendo je tolsimnycau jai mojri'a

You know? I think the subjects in all of these are sentences (it's an odd text,
but I wrote few texts post-bare jai.)

=In these, it also appears that the actor is selected:
=> nsn93716.txt: .iba'obo ko'a di'i jaise tolzaupai le jecta .e le zgifi'i girzu .i cedra

Then, Shostakovich was again condemned by the state and the composers' union.
Not an agent, since Shosty is raised from the x2 of tolzaupai, disapprove,
which would normally take an abstraction (le jecta cu tolzaupai tu'a la
costakovitc). More like 'theme' or 'goal'.

=> nsn93716.txt: .i ko'a seja'e di'a jai selzau je selnei be le cecmu

As a result, Shosty was once more approved and liked by the community. Same
story as se tolzaupai.

=> nsn93716.txt: loi cnino gi'e jaise zanru le jecta .iku'i co'a la 1928nan. le jecta

things approved by the state (da poi le jecta cu zanru tu'a ke'a). Same story.

=> nsn93a05.txt: prosa poi ciki'omei loi valsi zi'e noi .ei jai mulno ba lo jeftu be li

Hey! This is x1 raising, but still not agentive, but a goal: le prosa noi
tu'a ke'a .ei mulno --- the prose is being completed, not agentively
performing a completion.

You know, there's a dearth of agentive jai so far. There's an excellent reason
for this, of course: -gau does the work too.

=The second most popular is {jai se krefu}, although this is a bit artificial, 
=because it is always the same sentence:
=> nickb13.txt: dei tcita ledei lisri gi'e so'uroi jaise krefu vi le lisri

I can see *a lot* of use for jai se krefu, though: it's the only way to
say that something (rather than some action) is repeated.

=Then there is {jai se mukti}:
=> nickb13.txt: .i dei jai se mukti lenu di'u

This sentence is motivated by the above. Again, non-agentive: presumably,
lenu di'u co'e li'o cu mukti lenu dei zasti

=> nickb13.txt:    to va'i le lisri jufra jai se mukti

Same.

=> nsn93a23.txt: (tosa'a la bil. co'a jaise mukti lenu co'u xogji toi)

God knows what I meant here, but same story: Bill was motivated [to do 
something] because he stopped being hungry(?).

=and {jai se fliba}:
=> nickb13.txt: .i dei troci co jmiri'a fi le di'u preti gi'e jai se fliba
=> nickb13.txt: .i dei ba'e to'e jai se fliba

Are failed at. Sentences do not fail (fliba) --- that would be imputing
animacy to them --- but they can be failures (tu'a lei jufra ka'e fliba)

=The remaining cases, some not very clear to me, are:
=> nsn93827.txt: no'i ki'e .i mi .e lemi karce ctuca cu jai masti li vo fai lenu mi cilre

Oh! I loved this example, very Lojbanic. Me and my driving instructor took
four months for me to learn how to drive. So: lenu mi cilre lepu'e karce
sazri cu masti li vo; extract me and my instructor from x1, and you get
my sentence. Since you can't be an agent of a duration, this is probably
more like 'topic' or 'goal'.

=> nickb13.txt:                       gi'e jai se zukte fi no kliseljmi

Probably a sentence; it has been undertaken (you undertake actions, not
things: zo'e zukte tu'a le jufra)

=> nickb13.txt: .i dei pinka leka le sevra'a lisysu'a cu jaise juxre kei

Sentences aren't awkward, people are. But people can be awkward at doing
sentences: loi remna ka'e juxre tu'a loi jufra

=> nickb13.txt: .i dei reftoi gi'e jai se dimna le nunfliba ca le cfafa'o

Sentences aren't doomed in Lojban; events are dooms of states. But sentences
can be extracted from states.

=> nsn93827.txt: #.i ui ko jai se salci

Be celebrated. You celebrate events, not things; zo'e salci loi fasnu .a
tu'a loi dacti. Theme/topic.

=I can't conclude anything from these examples, I'm sure Nick can make some
=more intelligent comment. I don't think that there is anything wrong in
=assuming that for _most_ cases of {jai} with causative events, the selected
=sumti will be the actor of the causative event. I didn't find any 
=counterexample in Nick's uses. In any case, I'm not proposing that this be
=made into an unbreakable rule, just a rule for lujvo making.

Well. I'd have to go back to the list and work out what the argument was, but:

a) jai is quite useful in extracting *non*-agentive places, which do need
to be extracted --- though less often than agentives.

b) though agentive places are most often raised, -gau is already in place,
and probably to be prefered.

c) jai is vague, and given the unclear case status of x1's in sentences like
'the rock broke the window', this is a very good thing.

d) jai, irrespective of all this, *must* get a rafsi, and a good rafsi at
that. To not give it a rafsi is to limit expressiveness. It is precisely
with non-agentive raising --- which will happen a lot, which cannot be done
by -gau, and which is infrequent in our texts to date only because, as I've 
often maintained, the consequences of unraised predicates have yet to sink in 
in Lojbanistan --- where it will see most use, and where a rafsi will be sorely
missed, if absent.

Give it a good rafsi. If jar or jan or jal or jam are available, let jai have
it. Usage won't argue for this because usage hasn't yet realised that unraised
predicates present difficulties, which can't be resolved just by -gau. It will
pay to plan ahead.

-- 
 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @
 Nick Nicholas. Melbourne University, Aus. nsn@speech.language.unimelb.edu.au
                                    ---
"Some of the English might say that the Irish orthography is very Irish.
Personally, I have a lot of respect for a people who can create something so
grotesque."
-- Andrew Rosta <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>, <9307262008.AA95951@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk>