Re: reply: (1) veridicality

[Chris Bogart <cbogart@quetzal.com>]

Chris:
>> > If you and I were both fluent in, say, Croatian, would we have a
>> > tendency to use typical English figures of speech ...

Goran:
>I thought you were from Argentine?
>Or did I mix someting up again?

I guess you probably mixed up me and Jorge.  He's from Argentina, I'm from
the United States.

>But, pe'i that comes from knowing English good enough to be
>able to use ITS phrases - that, I believe is the meaning of 'fluency':
>to be able to THINK in a foreign language.

I tend to agree, but I'm glad to have heard the perspective of somone truly
bilingual.  That's why I think it's not so horrible for lojban to prescribe
some social/usage kinds of matters -- if you hear other lojbanists talking
that way, and learn to think that way yourself, it will seem quite natural
to go along with the trend and learn usage along with the language.

>For as long one has to think
>in hier* own language and translate his already verbalised thoughts,
>I think one would use hier* native language phrases.
>
>(*) Hee is 'he or she', hier is 'him or her'... :)

True, although most of us are doing a pretty good job most of the time of
avoiding that in Lojban, and I know I at least am still translating from
English in my head.  It's just that avoiding English phrases takes conscious
effort.

[ta'o Sometimes I use "they" and "their" for the 3rd person singular; it's a
fairly common thing among some dialects of American English already, and it
just happens to be gender-neutral.  Or, in this particular sentence you
could use "one's" for "hier".  Just my $.02 -- "hee" and "hier" are fine
with me!]

>There is one other thing I've noticed. Several of my friends also have
>the same command of the English as me. When we're together, we sometimes
>slip into English when verbalisation of a thought comes in that form
>before we can find an adequate expression in Croatian. So, it could sound
>like this (curly braces=English, normal text=Croatian):
>
>I like it. My {significant other} will be happy.

I noticed this when I lived in Japan; sometimes speaking English with other
anglophones we'd slip in Japanese words when they came to mind faster, like
"natsukashii" which means something vaguely like "nostalgic" but it's much
more common than the English word.

>There is no adequate translation for the phrase {SO}. We have {husband},
>{wife}, {girlfriend}, {boyfriend}, {the one I like/am attracted to very
>much} (I don't know the english word for it - the word itself is "simpatija"
>which is really {sympathy}, but It doesn't translate to ENGLISH),

I can't think of an English word for "simpatija" -- sounds useful!

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Chris Bogart
 cbogart@quetzal.com
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~