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First a request. yesterday's mail had many comments on the semantics of
individual gismu. Luckily I noted this in passing, and went over the
mail immediately. Otherwise I am running currently 50 days behind on
reading my mail carefully, and do not expect to come close to catching
up before the dictionary is done.
With all the good semantics discussion, I'd hate to see something useful
get left out of the gismu list because I didn't read it in time.
Therefore, if your discussion reveals confusion about the meaning of
some gismu or cmavo because the current text doesn't seem clear, or even
more important, there seems to be a problem/inappropriateness in the
place structure, please send me a private message with subject including
"BOOK:" or "GISMU:" or "DICTIONARY:" and I can promise special
attention will be given it. If a whole discussion seems to be hinging
on detailed word meanings, you can put this in the header of a general
Lojban List message as well.
Colin discussing And's attempt at tobacco smoking:
>I'm sorry, but despite the current English 'use' (which seems to
>subcategorise for _illegal_ drug), I cannot see that the tanko is a
>tool, apparatus, machine etc. It would be strange in English or Lojban
>to 'use' food or drink, except in the special case where the purpose is
>in focus: 'I use food as a boredom reliever'.
>You are right as to your first and third criticisms of my suggestions,
>but I maintain that in the normal case the 'purpose' is not relevant.
I've generally agreed with the things Colin posted yesterday on gismu
meanings, and several have led to explanatory changes in the gismu list.
(I will note in passing that most uses of the previous x1 of klani, now
x2 are covered equally well in places of merli, kancu, or namcu and are
probably less forced.)
In this case, I think that pilno IS appropriate if there exists a
purpose, even if it is not intended to be stressed. I think the only
time a particular place is stressed is when there are two gismu (or
perhaps common lujvo) that differ primarily in whether a place is
present or not, as for example klama and litru and cliva, and perhaps
gasnu and zukte. There is no general "uses" brivla that has no purpose
place, so the purpose is no more stressed than the 'route' x4 in "mi
klama le zarci"; it exists but may be ellipsized as obvious to the
I see pilno and zukte to be similar in that they have a purpose x3, but
that lack of contrast is fairly important too.
I never intended that the list of x2 possibilities for pilno should be
comprehensive or exclusionary (for example of 'material/substance' in x2
of pilno); often times these lists are provided as synonyms for
English-language lookup, especially in current lists where the
information is bracketed rather than parenthesized. I specifically did
not want it limited to "tools" (tutci) since we semantically divided up
tool/instrument-space 4 ways at the first DC LogFest back in '86 (even
before the split) into tutci, cabra, minji, and zukte.
I don't see that "using" a drug is without a purpose, and "boredom
relieving" and "hunger satisfying" seem like very good 'purposes',
especially if you are aware of them. In my 12 months of classes
associated with a diet program, there is considerable concentration on
'why you eat', and being aware of why when you do so, so as to avoid
eating merely out of unconscious habit.
This suggests that the underlying question is whether there can be a
goal/purpose for something if the person doing so is not consciously
undertaking said goal or purpose. I could live with that argument
against tobacco-use or chemical-use, but perhaps this can be accounted
for with "tcaci" - tobacco-habit-use or chemical-habit-use. (Use tenses
to distinguish between an individual instance of this, and the multiple
occasions that a habit suggests.
If there truly is no identifiable purpose, or if you don't like to
suggest that there is, I suggest "lifri": tobacco-burn-experience, or
"gasnu": tobacco-burn-agent. For generalized smoking, you could use
smoke-breathe (which it turns out is what JCB put in L4, not that this
is a recommendation %^); smoke-do for JCB is to preserve meat by smoking
it), with the substance being smoked as a modifier or as a place, as you
prefer, but I've heard that one difference between the various types of
smoking is whether you inhale or not, so you may have to search farther:
It may be that we want to broaden zdile to be "occupies", with only
context to indicate that it is pleasant (or zan- or pluky-), if that
would help on tricky questions of whether some actually enjoys an
experience; I may have presumed this anyway: I think the sense of
pleasantly I intended for zdile was meant to exclude
torture/imprisonment and other distinctly unpleasant things.
BTW And, I think you wanted "marna", as in marijuana, for "hemp".